Monday, February 21, 2011

(From the vaults) Winkleman pt.1: On Crime and Punishment



"More evidence that Corporations are not just people too, but privileged people:..."A normal person, once he gets a felony conviction, immediately begins to lose his rights as a citizen. But white-collar criminals of the type we’ve seen in recent years on Wall Street – both the individuals and the corporate "citizens" – do not suffer these ramifications. They commit crimes without real consequence, allowing them to retain access to the full smorgasbord of subsidies and financial welfare programs that, let’s face it, are the source of most of their profits." - Edward Winkleman

Had a quick piece of news I wanted to call attention to, in light of the recent developments at Zuccotti Park. For all of those who say the proteste
 ·  ·  · November 21 at 10:21am · 
  • You, Aaron Zimmerman and 19 others like this.
  • 2 shares
    • Justin Town please. It depends on the prosecutor, court, judge, timing. fraud is fraud...and there are millions of "normal people" who have gotten away with scamming our system on many levels for many years. Might I add that Bernie Madoff was sentenced to 150 years in prison.
      November 21 at 10:43am · 
    • Justin Town ‎...btw, where did she get the $4,367 to pay off the fine? There is always more to the picture...
      November 21 at 10:47am · 
    • Jack Fischer Justin : what Madoff got is still a slap on the wrist...sorry 150 years is not enough , he should get pepper sprayed every day of those 150 years. what he did is what the banks have done every day . what he did to the retirement hopes and dreams of thousands is unforgiveable.
      November 21 at 10:52am ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town idiotic response... maybe they should have just put Bernie to death then right?... and I do have one dear friend who was caught up in that mess...simply not the point. So by your logic, if Madoff deserves 150 years w/pepper spray then it seems perfectly reasonable for Anita McLemore to do that 3 years... w/some occasional hosing thrown in? pretty creepy outlook pal
      November 21 at 11:09am · 
    • Robbin Zella Jack...Madoff faced criminal charges and a conviction because he stole from the rich and the Fampous 9Kevin Bacon) bt if it's John Doe...who cares!
      November 21 at 11:14am ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town unless the John Doe symbolically highlights a position within a current political debate
      November 21 at 11:23am · 
    • Justin Town hence this lame post - Edward. ...the lopsided sentencing stuff is nothing new. shit happens
      November 21 at 11:33am · 
    • Edward Winkleman A few comments

      The $4,367 was not a fine, but the amount of money she received in food assistance. She paid it back, I'm presuming, as part of her admitting she had committed fraud.

      It's not the lopsidedness of the sentencing...it's the sense that the rich can get away with defrauding the government (but not other rich people, hence Madoff being scapegoated) but the poor will be punished for it. Moreover, it's the idiotic law that precludes someone from getting assistance to feed their children because they've had drug convictions. The drug laws are moronic in and of themselves, but the logic that would deny food to the children of a drug abuser is positively Dicksonian.
      November 21 at 1:23pm ·  ·  2
    • Diane Tenerelli-June Wow. I just don't understand this hatred of the poor and downtrodden. My husband's job is to help people with mental illness and addiction transition into normal society. He helps them apply for things like food stamps, housing and vocational training. Generally when they screw up and do things out of desperation it's because their back is up against a wall, not because they are driven by greed to get as many food stamps as they can. Drug addiction is an illness. Pretty sure about greed and elitism is not.
      November 21 at 1:24pm ·  ·  1
    • Edward Winkleman Oh, and "lame posts" are in the eye of the beholder, Justin...but I'll thank you to not bully people off my posts...feel free to do that on your own...as soon as you get some commenters, that is.
      November 21 at 1:27pm ·  ·  1
    • Edward Winkleman you're babbling
      November 21 at 3:36pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town In law that is considered a fine. She could have been ordered to pay partial or the whole amount but it is a fine. and deny food to the children? She had FOUR drug CONVICTIONS! Not drug abuser, if it was a felony it was drug DEALING! "The defendant's criminal record is simply abominable" Good, I'd go even one better... put the kid(s) into foster care. Again, she secured $4,367. How do you suppose she got a hold of that amount seeing as she is presumed destitute? I smell a rat. I've heard so many scenarios from attorneys of dealers in the 80's/90's selling crack or heroin right out of their kids strollers or securing subsidized housing and setting up shop taking in 20 to 60 k monthly... and for the cherry on top, collecting food stamps or anything else they can get their hands on...we all know the score but more importantly, the courts do. Take a stroll over to Newark sometime...when is the last time you took a walk on the wild side?... and who am I bullying, a man who say's someone should get pepper sprayed every day of a 150 year sentence? LOL!!!! If you can't handle your views being opposed Edward...remove me. From what I understand, it wouldn't be the first time.... believe me I understand more than you even realize.
      November 21 at 3:36pm · 
    • Justin Town Oh, and "babbling" is in the eye of the beholder
      November 21 at 3:37pm · 
    • Justin Town I have a few minutes man, lets rock it
      November 21 at 3:38pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman not really...it's pretty clearly defined as "To utter a meaningless confusion of words or sounds."
      November 21 at 3:38pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town yeah lori, keep those thumbs up
      November 21 at 3:38pm · 
    • Justin Town too confusing for you eddie?
      November 21 at 3:39pm · 
    • Lori Ellison I am Lawrence Swan's wife.
      November 21 at 3:39pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman see, again, you're attacking the other commenters...try attacking the original argument instead...and if you call me Eddie again, I'll call you JuJu Bean
      November 21 at 3:39pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town figures
      November 21 at 3:39pm · 
    • Justin Town figures? attacking? hmm
      November 21 at 3:40pm · 
    • Justin Town NICE! JJB
      November 21 at 3:40pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman ‎"yeah lori, keep those thumbs up"
      November 21 at 3:41pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town Waaaaay up
      November 21 at 3:41pm · 
    • Lori Ellison I've been following your blog and politics for quite awhile now.
      November 21 at 3:42pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman oh, you're the one following Justin... :-P
      November 21 at 3:42pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman JuJu, can you weigh in on the fact that the woman was seeking assistance to feed her children...that's the pertinent issue here that makes your opinion seem heartless
      November 21 at 3:43pm · 
    • Justin Town Eddie is a closet JTer
      November 21 at 3:43pm · 
    • Lori Ellison No I follow Ed.
      November 21 at 3:43pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman JTer??? do you mean "JJBer?"
      November 21 at 3:44pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town I hate followers
      November 21 at 3:44pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman how convenient!
      November 21 at 3:44pm · 
    • Justin Town I don't know if the woman was simply trying to feed her kids edward
      November 21 at 3:44pm · 
    • Justin Town exactly
      November 21 at 3:45pm · 
    • Justin Town to the aforementioned
      November 21 at 3:46pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman you're right...I'm sure she was going to buy a car with those food stamps...and what would seeing her tell you? You can judge people by how they look?
      November 21 at 3:46pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town no. but she could have bought a car with the 4 k
      November 21 at 3:47pm · 
    • Justin Town can you tell a real collector by look?
      November 21 at 3:47pm · 
    • November 21 at 3:47pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman you should open a gallery then...because after 10 years, I can't
      November 21 at 3:48pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town you had better erase that one
      November 21 at 3:48pm · 
    • November 21 at 3:48pm · 
    • Justin Town I enjoy you Eddie, i really do
      November 21 at 3:50pm ·  ·  1
    • Edward Winkleman you seem obsessed with the 4K....why?

      As for being able to recognize a "real collector by look" that notion is insulting...why would I erase that I can't do it?
      November 21 at 3:51pm · 
    • Lori Ellison It has been a good gallery with decisive and thoughtful shows. Collectors are considered a mystery to most gallerists I know, worked for Pierogi, Lennon Weinberg and Sideshow for awhile, an amazing amount of work is put in by the director of a gallery and is a business with a lot of risk involved if not blue chip.
      November 21 at 3:52pm · 
    • Justin Town Edward, I'm not even going to touch this any further... Maybe I'll get over to the gallery sometime soon and talk shop...real time. later for now.
      November 21 at 3:57pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman you're welcome any time. :-)
      November 21 at 3:58pm · 
    • Justin Town Lori...for the record a collector should NEVER be considered a mystery to the dealer.
      November 21 at 3:59pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman there's a subtlety here I think you're missing Justin. Your statement seemed to imply that if a person walked into the gallery that I had never met before, just by looking at them (because of how they're dressed or whatever) I should be able to tell they're a "real" (whatever that means) collector. Some of the best dressed people to enter the gallery have never bought art in their lives, and some of the most casually dressed people who enter the gallery have very important collections...so it is actually a mystery, until you talk with them...but you implied it can be determined by looks alone, which is incorrect.
      November 21 at 4:02pm · 
    • Justin Town not talking about dress...dressing down etc is a thing. I can tell by the way a person looks at the work, the way a person interacts with the space and so on. nine out of ten times you will be correct...if you are paying attention. Whatever business you are in, if you have done it long enough and well enough you can read your people at an entry level... and then you go further with that. I can read an individual pretty well within the first few minutes of meeting and further, I know when someone is pulling my leg as do the courts...going back to the original topic.
      November 21 at 4:11pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman ‎9 times out of 10 is not equivalent to "a collector should NEVER be considered a mystery"...I think you need to ask a few more dealers to conclude you're right here.
      November 21 at 4:13pm · 
    • Justin Town ok, so now we are talking two different things here. I will say it again, a collector should NEVER be considered a mystery. This is your business man! You are selling your specific artists and a specific type of work. You should know your both artists and your collectors like you know your family...do you not? Would you have an artist in your stable customize work for a eccentric collector for instance?
      November 21 at 4:18pm · 
    • Justin Town ‎...or would you place your artist's work with any schmuck who could meet the price tag? No, you know as well as I Edward that a collector should never be a mystery.
      November 21 at 4:29pm ·  ·  1
    • Diane Tenerelli-June Well, personally I work in Newark pretty frequently. Also the people selling drugs usually have an addiction as well. As far as I am concerned nobody is beyond redemption, not even you Justin.
      November 21 at 4:30pm · 
    • Edward Winkleman Justin...you're mixing your straw men with rather insulting presumptions.

      What role do you feel educating a new collector plays in the whole scenario? What role do you feel not discriminating against someone based on your private sense they're "not worthy" plays in the whole scenario?

      Again, please ask a few more dealers before you insist on much more here...it's so much more complicated that you're trying to present it.
      November 21 at 4:41pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town right, especially not me...most logical thing I've read all day. Yes, the people selling drugs usually have an addiction....they have their cake and eat it too. Many of these entrepreneurs make more cash then I do...I should know as my close friend is one of the best criminal attorneys in Newark!
      November 21 at 4:42pm · 
    • Justin Town I think a good collector would not even need your education Edward. "What role do you feel not discriminating against someone based on your private sense they're "not worthy" plays in the whole scenario?" Are you serious? So you WOULD sell to anyone huh? This business is extremely involved. The many dealers I associate with are most certainly exclusive. Do you really want to but heads with me on this issue on this format?
      November 21 at 4:46pm · 
    • Justin Town Maybe Anita McLemore should funnel that $4,367 into a Jennifer Dalton. You do want your artists work in the right collections
      November 21 at 4:49pm · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June Except we all have a story and as humans make mistakes. Some of us make them over and over. The difference between a drug dealer supporting their own habit and someone like Bernie Madoff is the state of mind. One is driven by greed and the other by desperation.
      November 21 at 4:50pm · 
    • Justin Town bullshit. Any drug dealer I've ever know of is totally motivated by greed...the addiction is a by product
      November 21 at 4:52pm · 
    • Justin Town drug dealing is a state of mind and a lifestyle...and a pretty lucrative one at that
      November 21 at 4:52pm · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June That man is so far from desperate it's ridiculous. He is just sorry he couldn't continue his scheme. I think he might even fall under the catagory of a sociopath.
      November 21 at 4:53pm · 
    • November 21 at 4:54pm · 
    • Justin Town I'm telling you that this mentality cuts through all socioeconomic boundaries. That was my original point, if anyone cared to read between the lines. edward
      November 21 at 4:56pm · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June Hmmm... I simply disagree Justin about the motivation of drug dealers. The ones I've known have been sad and desperate.
      November 21 at 4:56pm · 
    • Justin Town come on. The ones you have know are in the position of having to play your game.
      November 21 at 4:57pm · 
    • Justin Town btw is drug addiction anything new? Freud was an addict, ...If Madoff smoked crack would you feel better about his condition? greed is greed
      November 21 at 5:03pm · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June I am not a social worker. The people I've known or have been in contact with who were dealing were trying to stay one step ahead of their addiction in most cases. Generally the world comes crumbling down on most people who deal, it is inevitable. I think that if a jail sentence is being offered as a form of rehabilitation, then once someone is released from prison they should be accepted as a full fledged citizen. The right to vote, have food stamps and a roof over ones head should belong to anyone participating in society.
      November 21 at 5:15pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town one word: recidivism
      November 21 at 5:16pm · 
    • William Brovelli thinking about - What role do you feel not discriminating against someone based on your private sense they're "not worthy": I'm doing an ongoing series of works that are structured around the defining attributes of the individual to whom the artwork will be offered; i.e. the work considers race, ethnicity, gender, lifestyle, religion, age, career etc. The potential owner must fall under the basic definition of the title before the piece may be acquired. My dealer wont touch it and there is a reason for that.
      November 21 at 5:21pm · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June With the right case worker and resources that doesn't need to be the result.
      November 21 at 5:22pm · 
    • Justin Town give me the stats Diane, you know as well as I that it is a losing battle
      November 21 at 5:23pm · 
    • Justin Town ‎@WB, you might want to scrap that one lol
      November 21 at 5:26pm · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June I wouldn't give up on a person fighting their demons. The ones like Madoff who can't or won't be rehabilitated can stay where they are as far as I am concerned.
      November 21 at 5:27pm · 
    • William Brovelli The project is not too exclusive but not exclusive enough. Meaning work for the "drug dealer" "the truck driver" "the person with an active restraining order" "the freemason" you have to own the label to own the piece. This broadens the simple title of collector...the work goes into unorthodox collections. makes the sale of the object more difficult
      November 21 at 5:35pm · 
    • Justin Town ‎@WB you artists always have an agenda...email me the details, I know a dealer that might take you on in regards to this project...no promises
      November 21 at 7:30pm ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town DTJ, you know Madoff personally do you? lol
      November 21 at 7:30pm · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June The thousands of lives he's ruined tell us who he is.
      November 22 at 3:16am · 
    • Justin Town ‎...and millions of lives ruined via scum- bag drug dealers...tell us who they are.
      November 22 at 9:12am · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June ‎.... sigh. I'm done here.
      November 22 at 9:13am · 
    • Justin Town thanks for the stimulation D
      November 22 at 9:14am · 
    • Justin Town btw, do you even sleep? lol
      November 22 at 9:15am · 
    • Diane Tenerelli-June Madoff and pepper spray keep me awake.
      November 22 at 9:17am · 
    • Edward Winkleman I'll pick up from there...so, it's alright to paint any one convicted of selling drugs as a "scum bag" (without knowing anything more about them or their situation than that), but you're willing to suggest the financial fraudsters who brought the world to its knees paid their debt to society through their scapegoat Burnie Maddoff and we should all let them carry on as before?
      November 22 at 9:17am · 
    • Justin Town What I'm saying is if your going to point the dirty stick then do it right across the board
      November 22 at 9:22am · 
    • Justin Town you seem to pick and choose when to generalize Edward...in fact, we all do
      November 22 at 9:24am · 
    • Justin Town it's a slippery game
      November 22 at 9:25am · 
    • Justin Town and further... are you suggesting that drugs like crack, heroine and Methamphetamine have not brought society to it's knees?...or that money or lack of is a gauge for which we might assess moral intentions?
      November 22 at 9:35am · 
    • Edward Winkleman I think drugs should be legalized and that putting someone in prison for selling a few joints or pills is asinine
      November 22 at 9:43am ·  ·  2
    • Justin Town selling a few joints or pills is one thing. There are levels so don't confuse the issue here. Back to the real debate...In other words, if you are "poor" whatever that means, "mans inhumanity against man" is viewed as reactionary but actions of the same nature are viewed in a harsher light if you have a certain degree of wealth. yes, I agree, like alcohol drugs should be legalized.
      November 22 at 9:45am · 
    • Edward Winkleman dont' confuse the issue here??? The issue is that white-collar criminals don't get treated with the same inhumanity as poor criminals, even though their crimes hurt far more people.
      November 22 at 9:47am · 
    • Justin Town bullshit. you are picking and choosing again. I can (and will) put together an extensive list of power individuals who have been sentenced to the letter for crimes like rape, murder, tax evasion etc. as well as a list of "poor criminals" who have gotten away with outrageously heinous acts.
      November 22 at 9:51am · 
    • Edward Winkleman I'm waiting.
      November 22 at 9:53am · 
    • Edward Winkleman read too quickly...what you need to do is assemble a list of poor criminals whose crime hurt 6 billion people worldwide...again, I'll be waiting
      November 22 at 9:54am ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town are you joking? and you are talking in gross exaggerations and generalities as usual... 6 billion. but regarding "poor criminals" look into the rapes in the Congo for starters
      November 22 at 9:58am · 
    • Edward Winkleman I'm not joking. That's what we're talking about here very directly. A woman who frauded the government out of $4K to feed her kids (with the added kick in the teeth that the laws that made her actions "fraud" didn't need to be adopted by her state...others have not adopted them) versus financial leaders who systematically stuffed the system with garbage derivatives that had to explode in their faces one day and in the process plunged the entire world (all 6 billion of us) into The Great Recession, wiping out wealth around the globe, leading millions to lose their jobs and homes, and nearly causing catastrophic economic harm.
      November 22 at 10:02am · 
    • Justin Town please Eddie, stop acting so naive lol
      November 22 at 10:02am · 
    • Edward Winkleman I will as soon as you answer my question. Who among the "poor" criminals has done anything so horrible and not been held accountable? Still waiting...
      November 22 at 10:03am · 
    • Justin Town wiping out wealth? I thought you were against wealth? The Great Recession? HAHAHA. We already cover this welfare fraud thing early on...and Who among the "poor" criminals has done anything so horrible and not been held accountable? I answered you START WITH THE RAPES IN THE CONGO.
      November 22 at 10:06am · 
    • Edward Winkleman the rapes in the Congo affected 6 billion people? you can throw up as many smoke screens as you like, but you're not fooling anyone. Answer the question.
      November 22 at 10:09am · 
    • Justin Town like I have done before when you get all funny like this...your list will be complete in a few days. It will be a nice extensive run down... "Who among the "poor" criminals has done anything so horrible and not been held accountable?" Jeeezus Eddie, are you that out of touch with the workings of criminality in society? Read the papers lol
      November 22 at 10:09am · 
    • Justin Town what is with your 6 billion people crap? Are you down playing the rapes in the Congo? This is not a smoke screen but a mass horror story
      November 22 at 10:11am · 
    • Justin Town you asked for an example and I gave you one of the top...look into it
      November 22 at 10:12am · 
    • Edward Winkleman it's a red herring is what it is. Completely unrelated to the mother fraudster or the financial fraudsters...and not even under the same criminal justice system...it doesn't come close to answering my question
      November 22 at 10:12am · 
    • A new study in the American Journal of Public Health, estimates that nearly two ...See More

      November 22 at 10:13am · 
    • Edward Winkleman still a red herring
      November 22 at 10:13am · 
    • Justin Town red herring my ass. You asked for an example of "poor crime" and you got it...on a mass scale. If you consider this a red herring so be it
      November 22 at 10:16am · 
    • Edward Winkleman you're exhausting...
      November 22 at 10:17am ·  ·  1
    • Justin Town oh wait. Might this be that it is not a White American thing so it doesn't hold as much weight in your eyes?
      November 22 at 10:17am · 
    • Edward Winkleman now you're just being an ass
      November 22 at 10:18am · 
    • Justin Town yeah, when you try to bob and weave issues it does get tiering
      November 22 at 10:18am · 
    • Justin Town I can give it right back Edward.
      November 22 at 10:19am · 
    • Justin Town and if you are asking only for examples of mass fraud committed by the "poor" I won't even talk about 5 decades of unchecked social security or welfare fraud. How about the “televangelist” phenomena in the 80's/90's...many of those cats (not to mention individual churches) started out "poor" and look at the empires they built on the backs of the gullible...There are so many scam artists in this world it is virtually unfathomable and it cuts across all socioeconomic boundaries. greed knows no bounds
      November 22 at 10:29am · 
    • Justin Town Back to "poor criminals" two million women have been raped in the Democratic Republic of Congo, with women victimized at a rate of nearly one every minute. wtf dude? These rapes are solid documented numbers not this inflated, speculative abstract of 6 million people taking some type of financial hit. No comparison is right
      November 22 at 10:33am · 
    • Justin Town now you disappear lol 
      November 22 at 10:35am · 


      Here, Take one for the road: Seattle Woman Collected Welfare in $1.2 Million House
      http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2011/12/06/seattle-woman-collected-welfare-while-living-in-1-2-million-hou/
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